John Piper - What must someone believe in order to be saved? "vs" patrick j miron singular truth

start here

Re: I am here to promote unity

---

Quote:

Originally Posted by CatholicCrusader ".Both statements are wrong, but I must admit that your personal spin on the meaning of the "rock" in Matt 16 does have a few original elements, although they are crazier than the usual ones I see. You get an "E" for effort there, but overall, an "F".

So, you reject what Jesus clearly said at Matthew 16:17 - Why?

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

In saying this Jesus clearly indicated that the "rock" was the Holy Spirit that speaks within that Peter evidenced.

My friend, Jesus calls his followers to believe as He believed not to believe like the scribes and Pharisees who rejected his teachings and crucified him believed and that includes the Pope. And, of course, you who call the Pope your holy Father and yourselves Catholic Crusaders

#56 10-08-2012, 05:19 PM

patrick68 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 114

Re: I am here to promote unity Quote: =KB2;142857]Thank you for your post patrick 68. However, as I said: When Jesus said to Peter... Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16:17-18 KJV The "rock" Jesus spoke about was not an organizational rock. But rather the "rock" is the establishment of "divine contact" which Peter evidenced and this spiritual "contact" is purely a personal (not an organizational) reality/experience and it is available to everyone who seeks it irrespective of church affiliation. The claim that salvation is not available outside of the Catholic church and that the church is the foundation of truth is false. The foundation for truth is the Holy Spirit that speaks within that Peter evidenced -- not the Catholic church, REALLY??????? Then perhaps you will take the time to read this and comment on it i Catholic by Pat Miron Key’s “to The Kingdom” Explained Collected and written in part by Pat Miron In your opinion, what does the phrase "keys to the kingdom" refer to? Quote: “I would like just one Catholic to tell me specifically what they think these keys are that” were given to their church. Who? Jesus the Christ [Mt. 16:16] The Son of God. All Knowing - all Wise - all everything Good. A key element of Gods Perfect Goodness is that God is and has to be “All-Fair and All Just.” Otherwise He would not be God. The words used by Jesus are carefully selected to insure proper understanding. [Mt. 16: 15-19] He [JESUS] said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter replied, [Peter is in a personal one on one conversation with Jesus here] "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And [JESUS]I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock [ON YOU PETER] I will build my [SINGULAR] church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. [19] I [Jesus] will give you [PETER / My new Church] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, [To be understood as everything one needs to get to heaven; Including Christ Himself] and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." The choice of words selected by Christ. To “bind” and to “loose” were common, rabbinical, legally binding at Law terms for exactly that! Complete, and free governance. Jesus, Peter and all that heard knew exactly what Jesus meant! WHERE Mt. 16:13: “Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do men say that the Son of man is?" “ Caesarea Philippi is in the Northern hill country of Judea. It was a by their standards, a large town. It was also the site of the areas Major Pagan Temple. The location Jesus chooses is a clear indication of the Mission of His Church, and Peter and the Apostles. “Overcome, do away with pagan worship.” Jesus not only gives His Church this Mission, He gives His Church all of the tools and authority needed to accomplish it! Why? The “Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven” is a literal statement of FACT! [Mt. 16:19] Jesus speaking directly to Saint Peter at the occasion of Founding His [now Catholic] Church: “[19] I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." This is what Jesus said, did, intended and has accomplished. It’s what the Word of God clearly says and clearly means. Amen! Back in the time if Jesus it was common for major cites to be walled in for protection from attack. These cities actually had two real GATES, with REAL KEYS. A minor gate and the Main gate. Now under independent rule, each major city also had there own king, and thus a "kingdom." So there were many Kings and many kingdoms. A brief reading of the Old Testament list many Kings (who often merged with other kingdoms for the purpose of self-defense) because they were often too small to be completely independent against other NATIONS, who too merged all of their kingdoms resources to do battle and gain territory. So the Apostles and the Jewish people of that time period would have been familiar and comfortable with the idea of a King and his Kingdom, as well as a Prime Minister who is the Keeper of the Key’s. Typically the Prime Minister had complete, autonomous control of ALL day to day activities. The Prime Minister answered to NO-ONE except the King Himself. Thus the Pope answers directly to God. This is the common understanding and the very reason for the specific reference to "Keys" and the "Kingdom." There would have been absolutely zero doubts about what Christ was saying, doing and mandating for Peter, now the "Prime Minister" for Christ new Kingdom! This account is historically provable. Indeed Christ intended to start His (ONE) Church, and to give Peter and those "prime-ministers" (POPES) complete and autonomous control and governance of His Church. WHY? Because Christ knew He would soon return to the Father. Isaiah 22:22-24 Re: PETER(and Jesus)“And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. And I will fasten him like a peg in a sure place, and he will become a throne of honor to his father's house. And they will hang on him the whole weight of his father's house, the offspring and issue, every small vessel, from the cups to all the flagons” Mt. 28: 19-20 “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age." John 10: 1"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door [ MY CHURCH] but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber; 2 but he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. Rev. 3: [RE: PETER] [/b]. "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: 'The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one shall shut, who shuts and no one opens. Eph. 2:19 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple [SINGULAR] in the Lord; [singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.” [b] John 20: 19-22 “On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you." When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.” The last two color-highlighted verses are pregnant with teaching and meaning: Jesus is in the upper room with the eleven Apostles and 120 other disciples…. Clearly He is speaking Directly to the Apostles. [Verses 17 and 23 give evidence of this], as do these passages: Mark.16:14 Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they sat at table; and he upbraided them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen“. Luke.24: 9 “and returning from the tomb they told all this to the eleven and to all the rest. 33 And they rose that same hour and returned to Jerusalem; and they found the eleven gathered together and those who were with them,” As the Father [God] has sent “Me” [also God and man] , even so I [God] send you.” This is saying that Just as I came in the Power of God; so I send you with My Powers. It is these words that are attributed as Christ Officially initiation of the CC. [“CC”] means the Roman Catholic Church with Her Present 22 branches that are in FULL Communion with Rome. [The term means in alignment with and Obedient too]. Haydock’s Catholic Commentary [widely recognized throughout the years as perhaps the best… Written in the late 1800’s.] Ver. 21. As the Father hath sent me. The word mission, when applied to our Saviour Christ, sometimes signifies his eternal procession from the Father, and sometimes his mission, as he was sent into the world to become man, and the Redeemer of mankind: the first mission agrees with him, as the eternal Son of God; the second, as man, or as both God and man. The mission which Christ here gives his apostles, is like this latter mission, with this great difference, that graces and divine gifts were bestowed on Christ, even as man, without measure: and the apostles had a much lesser share in both these missions. See St. Augustine, lib. iv. de Trin. chap. xix. xx. tom. 4. p. 829. and seq. (Witham) --- A few words about Binding and Loosing: FYI: I make use of Strong’s [non-catholic] Lexicon to get definitions from the Bibles English to there Hebrew and Greek meanings. Bind/ Hebrew = 3256 yacar yaw-sar' a primitive root; to chastise, literally (with ****s) or figuratively (with words); hence, to instruct:--bind, chasten, chastise, correct, instruct, punish, reform, reprove, sore, teach. 6105 `atsam aw-tsam' a primitive root; to bind fast, i.e. close (the eyes); intransitively, to be (causatively, make) powerful or numerous; denominatively (from 6106) to crunch the bones:--break the bones, close, be great, be increased, be (wax) mighty(-ier), be more, shut, be(-come, make) strong(-er). Bind Greek = 332. anathematizo an-ath-em-at-id'-zo from 331; to declare or vow under penalty of execration:--(bind under a) curse, bind with an oath. Loose Hebrew = 332. anathematizo an-ath-em-at-id'-zo from 331; to declare or vow under penalty of execration:--(bind under a) curse, bind with an oath. 7971 shalach shaw-lakh' a primitive root; to send away, for, or out (in a great variety of applications):--X any wise, appoint, bring (on the way), cast (away, out), conduct, X earnestly, forsake, give (up), grow long, lay, leave, let depart (down, go, loose), push away, put (away, forth, in, out), reach forth, send (away, forth, out), set, shoot (forth, out), sow, spread, stretch forth (out). Loose Greek= 142. airo ah'-ee-ro a primary root; to lift up; by implication, to take up or away; figuratively, to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind), specially, to sail away (i.e. weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare 5375) to expiate sin:--away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up). 630. apoluo ap-ol-oo'-o from 575 and 3089; to free fully, i.e. (literally) relieve, release, dismiss (reflexively, depart), or (figuratively) let die, pardon or (specially) divorce:--(let) depart, dismiss, divorce, forgive, let go, loose, put (send) away, release, set at liberty. 2673. katargeo kat-arg-eh'-o from 2596 and 691; to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively:--abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no (none, without) effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away, make void. Haydock’s On Mt. 16:19 ‘The Key’s” Ver. 19. And I will give to thee the keys, &c. This is another metaphor, expressing the supreme power and prerogative of the prince of the apostles. The keys of a city, or of its gates, are presented or given to the person that hath the chief power. We also own a power of the keys, given to the other apostles, but with a subordination to St. Peter and to his successor, as head of the Catholic Church. --- And whatsoever thou shalt bind, &c. All the apostles, and their successors, partake also of this power of binding and loosing, but with a due subordination to one head invested with the supreme power. (Witham) --- Loose on earth. The loosing the bands of temporal punishments due to sins, is called an indulgence: the power of which is here granted. (Challoner) --- Although Peter and his successors are mortal, they are nevertheless endowed with heavenly power, says St. Chrysostom, nor is the sentence of life and death passed by Peter to be attempted to be reversed, but what he declares is to be considered a divine answer from heaven, and what he decrees, a decree of God himself. He that heareth you, heareth me, &c. The power of binding is exercised, 1st. by refusing to absolve; 2nd. by enjoining penance for sins forgiven; 3nd. by excommunication, suspension or interdict; 4th. by making rules and laws for the government of the Church; 5th. by determining what is of faith by the judgments and definitions of the Church. (Tirinus) --- The terms binding and loosing, are equivalent to opening and shutting, because formerly the Jews opened the fastenings of their doors by untying it, and they shut or secured their doors by tying or binding it. Quote: =Protestant= You are really behind the times. Catholicism; especially in North America has become a house divided, on abortion, and other issues. The only difference is Catholics won't call the differences "denominations." They use other fancy words and terminology. As highlighted I tend to agree with you on this one point. But that is not "the only difference." The Catholic Church in America (what some of refer to as the American catholic? Church) holds many different views, moral, political and biblical than us Roman Catholics living here in America. Quote: I would like just one Catholic to tell me specifically what they think these keys are that were given to their church. I would be willing to bet that the OP doesn't even know and will have to look it up. Allow me to at least try to respond to your challenge. In order to do so I must attempt to answer for you the W’s, who, what, where and why? Who? Jesus the Christ [Mt. 16:16] The Son of God. All Knowing - all Wise - all everything Good. A key element of Gods Perfect Goodness is that God is and has to be “All-Fair and All Just.” Otherwise He would not be God. So from this we are able to understand that when God teaches He does so with complete understanding of what it is He is teaching, and does so in a manner those whom He chooses to enlighten WILL UNDERSTAND that. [Mt. 11:25-26] The words used by Jesus are carefully selected to insure proper understanding. [Mt. 16: 15-19] He [JESUS] said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter replied, [Peter is in a personal one on one conversation with Jesus here] "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And [JESUS]I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock [ON YOU PETER] I will build my [SINGULAR] church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. [19] I will give you [PETER / My new Church] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Peter called “Cephas” meaning Peter =ROCK John.1: 40 to 42 “ One of the two who heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. He first found his brother Simon, and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which means Christ). He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him, and said, "So you are Simon the son of John? You shall be called Cephas" (which means Peter). [WHICH MEANS ROCK] Strong's Greek Lexicon Search Results Result of search for "Cephas": 2786. Kephas kay-fas' of Chaldee origin (compare 3710); the Rock; Cephas (i.e. Kepha), a surname of Peter:--Cephas. Agape Bible Study "Cephas" is the Greek transliteration of Peter's Aramaic name "Rock" = Kepha, or perhaps in Galilean Aramaic "Qepha". Only John among the Gospels gives this form of Peter's name but it is also the preferred name that St. Paul uses when he writes about Peter.” This is part of the discourse in which Christ makes clear in unambiguous language that He intends to: 1. Form His Church (singular use of “I” and “you” and “church.” 2. That it is to be only ONE church. 3. That Peter is given the access (gate keys) to heaven. 4. Peter (and Peter alone) is given all of the power and authority to govern with COMPLETE autonomous authority, answering ONLY to God Himself! We can know this by the choice of words selected by Christ. To “bind” and to “loose” were common, rabbinical, legally binding at Law terms for exactly that! Complete, and free governance. Jesus, Peter and all that heard knew exactly what Jesus meant! Exactly what Jesus meant! At the time these were very commonly used words. Also see [Mt. 18:15-18] "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; [SINGULAR] and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind [Mandate / decide on] on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. WHERE? Mt. 16:13: “Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do men say that the Son of man is?" “ The timing and the location were of great significance to the message, the purpose and the mission of what Jesus was in the process of setting up and doing. Jesus was aware of when and how soon He would be put to death. Caesarea Philippi is in the hill country of Judea. It was a by their standards, a large town. It was also the site of the areas Major Pagan Temple. Thus Jesus ask, “ who do people say that I am.” Not satisfied with the response Jesus then “ask His decuples (plural.) PETER answers, [Mt. 16: 16 ]Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." This is significant, for the mandate that follows is directly out of the mouth of God! And all there were aware of this fact. The location Jesus chooses is a clear indication of the Mission of His Church, and Peter and the Apostles. “Overcome, do away with pagan worship.” Jesus not only gives His Church this Mission, He gives His Church all of the tools and authority needed to accomplish it! Why? Why indeed! Jesus knew from the moment of his Conception in the Virgin womb of His Mother, what Gods plan (His Plan) was. He knew that he would suffer and die that He would rise from the Dead, and be our Redeemer. He further knew that [Mt. 22:14 “14 ] For many are called, but few are chosen." The word “chosen, in this context means “chosen BY US!” In other words, many will deny, and many will die because of unbelief, because of the personal choice we make. Jesus clearly knew what lie in store for His Disciples and the persecution His Church, and His Disciples, would have to face. This is precisely why the mandate, why the authority, why the church, why they too would die professing that Christ is Lord! That Jesus remains present “ Really Present,” why Jesus instituted the Seven Sacraments. All this so that His Church would have the power and the authority, the tools and the grace, to become the “Narrow Gate” of Christ plan for our Salvation. [Mt. 7: 13.] The “Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven” is a literal statement of FACT! [Mt. 16:19] Jesus speaking directly to Saint Peter at the occasion of Founding His [now Catholic] Church: “[19] I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." This is what Jesus said, did, intended and has accomplished. It’s what the Word of God clearly says and clearly means. Amen! I made a point of why Jesus selected Caesarea Philippi, and it was primarily because it was the "center of pagan worship for the area." Indeed it was the location of a very large Pagan Temple. But why did Jesus use the term "the keys?" Was there a specific reason? Would those to whom Jesus was speaking have easily picked up on what Jesus was saying and doing? Our Blessed Lord was fond of Parables that told stories in order to make the point He was trying to make. So we can understand that whatever words Jesus selected were carefully chosen. Have you by chance ever watched EWTN and the morning rosary?] The reason I ask is that it shows various parts of Jerusalem today. Jerusalem even today continues to be a walled in fortified city, with real gates, and real keys. Back in the time if Jesus all major cites were walled in for protection from attack. These cities actually had two real GATES, with REAL KEYS. A minor gate and the Main gate. Now under independent rule, each major city also had there own king, and thus a "kingdom." So there were many Kings and many kingdoms. A brief reading of the Old Testament list many Kings (who often merged with other kingdoms for the purpose of self-defense) because they were usually too small to be completely independent against other NATIONS, who too merged all of their kingdoms resources to do battle and gain territory. So the Apostles and the Jewish people of that time period would have been familiar and comfortable with the idea of a King and his Kingdom, a Prime Minister who is the Keeper of the Key’s. Such was true of Kings and Kingdoms. All day to day governance was given to a person that they selected as "Prime Minister." An example of this is Genesis 42 and Joseph, the brother sold into slavery, which is made Prime Minister of all of Egypt. Typically a Prime Minister had complete, autonomous control of ALL day to day activities. The Prime Minister answered to NO-ONE except the King Himself and nobody but the King. This is the common understanding and the very reason for the specific reference to "Keys" and the "Kingdom." There would have been absolutely zero doubts about what Christ was saying, doing and mandating for Peter, now the "Prime Minister" for Christ! This account is historically provable. Indeed Christ intended to start His (ONE) Church, and to give Peter and those "prime-ministers" (POPES) complete and autonomous control and governance of His Church. Some further Biblical evidence on the Authority of the Pope and the Only Church actually founded by Christ. Authority Luke 10:16 "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." John 21: 15-19 [15] When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs." A second time he said to him, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep." He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, "Do you love me?" And he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep. Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you girded yourself and walked where you would; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish to go." (This he said to show by what death he was to glorify God.) And after this he said to him, "Follow me." Eph. 4: 1-7 “I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body [WHICH MEANS ONE CHURCH] and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. Luke 22:28 "You are those who have continued with me in my trials; 2 and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Mt. 28: 19-20 19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age." 2nd. Cor.11: 12 “And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.” 1 Peter 1: “12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things which have now been announced to you by those who preached the good news to you through the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.” John 10: 1"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door [ MY CHURCH] but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber; 2 but he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the gatekeeper opens; the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. Mt. 7: 21 "Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.” 2 Peter 2: 1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their licentiousness, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words; from of old their condemnation has not been idle, and their destruction has not been asleep. Mt. 16: 15 He [Jesus] said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I [singular] tell you, you are Peter,[singular] and on this rock [singular] I will build my [singular] church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.[singular] 19 I [God singular] will give you [singular] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you [singular] bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Eph. 4: 4 -8 “There is one body [One Church] and one Spirit, [One set of beliefs] just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, [One God] one faith, [One set of doctrine and dogma] one baptism,[ By water in the Trinity] one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. Therefore it is said, Eph. 5: 23 Christ is the head of the church [SINGULAR] , his body, [[SINGULAR]. 1 Cor. 14: 12 “ So with yourselves; since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church. [singular] Eph. 3: 9 “And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; 10 that through the church [SINGULAR] the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, Col. 1: 18 “ He is the head of the body [singular], the church; [singular] he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell” Acts 20: 28 “Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of the LORD” [SINGULAR] Mt. 18: 15 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; [singular] and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. [18] Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 1 Cor. 12: 12-1 “For just as the body [singular] is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, [singular] though many, are one body, [singular] so it is with Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--Jews or Greeks, slaves or free--and all were made to drink of one Spirit.” The Keys represent unlimited Power of Governance as well as being “the [also singular] narrow gate” one MUST enter to attain salvation. PJM [Matt. 7:13-14.] God’s Continued Blessings for you and your’s, Love and prayers, Pat

How can I know if my repentance is genuine?--There are three kinds of Baptism-God bless---,Pat Miron--Marian Catecheist

start here

Oct 11, '08, 10:39 am

PJM Senior Member Join Date: August 31, 2008 Posts: 7,810 Religion: Informed, practicing RomanCatholic

Re: i have a problem with understanding free will Quote: Originally Posted by ilovekittens This is what free will is supposed to be, but can you give any examples where one might make a choice that is wholly independent of circumstance? Every single situation that I can think of, in which we might have a "choice" in the matter, ends up being colored by lots of other things - societal norms, education, previous experience, biology, psychology, personality, etc. Sure Did you decide to ask the question, or did someone (some unknown force) MAKE you ask the question? That my friend is an example you using your free will God bless, Pat Miron Marian catecheist     Re: i have a problem with understanding free will Quote: Originally Posted by Starwynd It doesn't. Because if we don't choose God we go to hell, period, no matter how good of a person we are. Only Christians get to go to heaven. Opps! NOT TRUE! And not the teaching of theRRC There are three kinds of Baptism: 1. By Water and The Holy Spirit 2. By Desire: If a person truly desires to be united with their Christ, and die "with" Christ, God who is "All -Just" will accept them, if for real reasons they are unable to be Baptized with water and the Spirit. 3. By Blood. If one so desires to be united with Chris that they die literally for Christ, God accepts that as baptism into His Church. God bless, Pat Miron Marian Catecheist

John Piper - Nobody's scared into heaven-- comentary with patrick j miron

start here

God made us and desires that we Do find; and possess true inner-peace.

READ John 20:19-23...

"On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you."
When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." ...[speaking directly to the 11 apostles] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

Christ, who is LOVE, Twice in this very short passage says "peace be with you" He then goes on to point out both the most significant cause of one not having peace; which is SINS; and then provides the key [singular] to finding and attaining it. Through the sacrament of KNOWN forgiveness; Confession.

And YES; it remains God who does the actual forgiving. Also as a FYI: The idea of forgiveness by priest is in the OT books of Leviticus, and Duet. Lie other things it is now improved; expanded and perfected by Christ.

PEACE be with you friends!

God Bless,
Pat

Source(s):

1st. John 1: 6-7
1st. John 5: 16-17

 

 

 

Response to the Comments on the Bible Posts

by Kristy on May 7, 2010

Well I asked Pat for an “assist” on the debate going on in the comments section of the Bible post, and once again, the Great Pat Miron has outdone himself! See document below for more information than you ever thought was possible for one person to know! (Love you too, Pat!)
Hi, I’m the “Pat Miron” Kristy mentions from time to time. She has asked that I comment on “THE COMMENTS” and because she is one of my favorite people in the whole world, I’m happy to do so.

My comments are in green [NO, not envy; IRISH! J ] so our discussion will be easier to follow.
Kristy’s comments are In Blue

Additionally, I found THIS supporting evidence for the Church’s inclusion of ALL books of the ORIGIONAL Christian Bible:

The Protestants of the sixteenth century objected to the additional books because of the doctrinal teachings of these books. The Second Book of Machabees, for example, contains the doctrine of purgatory, of prayers and sacrifices for the dead (12:39-46). The book of Tobias teaches the importance in the eyes of God of good works. The Protestants could not reject some without excluding all of the additional books. Hence, in drawing up their list of Old Testament books they went back to the first collection of Biblical books of the Palestinian Jews. They removed the additional books, which had been in the Bible up till 1517 and placed them at the end of the Bible in a special appendix. In addition, they labelled them as “apocryphal” (spurious, uninspired), a designation which helped to lower them in the estimation of Protestant readers.

It seems reasonable in that we are discussing the Bible, to point out the duplicity of Luther, Calvin, and frankly all Protestants who knowingly and freely choose to NOT USE THE CATHOLIC BIBLE. Why?

This and the errant understanding that everyone is qualified to interpret God’s Holy Writ, are the foundation of sand that has caused the proliferation of Christian church’s, faiths and different beliefs. Keep in mind there can logically be ONLY one truth on every issue. Many opinions, but only one truth.

KJ Bible 2 Tim. 3: 16 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”

Douay Rheims Bible 2 Tim. 3:16 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: “

If one is to find any merit in the Bible; one must accept the premise that the entire Bible is true [BUT NOT necessarily factual [Mt.5:29, Mt. 6:22, and Mt.7:3 for examples]. Any other understanding would make the bible meaningless as “God’s Mission Statement and Instruction Manual.”

Therefore, it is clearly evident that Luther and others of his group, acted against God’s single truth. If “ALL” the Bible was and is Inspired; then there exist NO GROUNDS to shorten it or alter it’s teachings. God is All Wise and All Perfect; incapable of error. So on what basis did Luther abort God‘s Inspired Bible?

In Luther’s time; Protestantism was founded on lies, and today’s Protestants, while not maintained “on lies,” nevertheless is founded on the soft sands of a multitude of errant thoughts and misunderstandings. [2 Tim. 3:16]

Hi s Holiness Pope Benedict XVI, in his first homily [speech] upon accepting the responsibility of “the Key’s to the Kingdom of God, and becoming our Pope” [Mt. 16:19], echoed his predecessor, The Great Pope john Paul II, on the understanding of “TRUTH.”

QUOTE: “There cannot be your truth and my truth or there would be no truth.” Is the only possible, and logical understanding of “truth.”

Our God in His Infinite Wisdom has done the following:

Created a Universe with Billions of stars and planets.

Of these Billions of stars and planets that we are aware of in 2010, ONLY the planet Earth has the capacity to support life forms.

On Planet Earth God placed humanity

On Planet Earth God placed His Son Jesus Christ

WHY?

God sent His Son to Planet Earth because only humanity; among the countless living species is GIFTED with a mind [not brain, mind], an intellect, a freewill and a everlasting soul. WHY?

All of these gifts from God, to humanity alone are “Spiritual gifts.” Quantify for me your mind. What is it’s shape, color, size, weight? We can’t because like God Himself these are “spiritual things.” So WHY is humanity so Blessed?

Only humanity possesses the capacity to know God and to thank God.

Isa.43: 7 every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.” Isa.43: 21 “the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise.” Rom.14: 11 “for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God.” 1Pet.1: 7 “so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold which though perishable is tested by fire, may redound to praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.” Rev. 19: 5 And from the throne came a voice crying, “Praise our God, all you his servants, you who fear him, small and great.”

Humanity is Blessed with these Spiritual Gifts precisely in-order that we are enabled to freely chose to “Know, Love and Serve God in this life; that we MIGHT be happy with Him for all eternity in the Eternal life“ [Catholic Catechism]. BUT the same gifts that permit us to freely chose to know, love and serve God [by Obedience] also allow us to freely choose NOT to accept God’s Church, God’s Bible, God’s plan [not ours… GOD”S] for our personal salvation.

From “ THE ROCK,” is not merely words; it is the description used by Jesus Himself in describing His New Covenant, His New Church and His New Faith…. All SINGULAR. [Mt. 16:15-19, Mt. 18:18, Mt. 28:19-20].

FACT: There are nearly 100 references to [ONLY] “One Church” in the NT. Here are four examples:

John 10:16 And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.

Eph. 2:19 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [SINGULAR] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [SINGULAR in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

Eph. 4: 4 “There is one body [One Church] and one Spirit, [One set of beliefs] just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 5 one Lord, [One God] one faith, [One set of doctrine and dogma] one baptism,[ By water in the Trinity] 6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. 7 But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore it is said, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.”

Eph. 5: 23 “Christ is the head of the church [SINGULAR] , his body,” [SINGULAR]

I sincerely apologize for such a lengthy introduction; but it is necessary that you know what I share in not simply what I believe; but firmly founded in Sacred Scripture.

Kristy’s comments
The Lutheran and Anglican Bibles still carry these books in the appendix or give them at least a secondary place. But the other Protestant churches reject them entirely. In 1827 the British and Foreign Bible Society decided not to print or handle Bibles that contained the additional books and not to aid financially companies that published Bibles containing them. As a result these books have practically disappeared from Protestant Bibles. The Catholic Church has always considered these books as inspired and of the same rank as the other Old Testament books. Her attitude is based upon the following facts
5) The oldest Christian lists of Biblical books contain the additional books. In 382 Pope Damasus in a Roman Council issued a formal list of Old and New Testament books and the list contains the same books as we have in our Bibles.
6) Finally, Christian art of the first four centuries – especially that found in the catacombs and cemeteries – furnishes among others the following illustrations from the additional books: Tobias with the fish (Tobias 6), Susanna (Daniel 13), Daniel and the dragon (Daniel 14), the angel with the three children in the fiery furnace (Daniel 3:49), Habacuc and Daniel in the lion’s den (Daniel 14:35).
In conclusion, let us point out that since they follow the synagogue in their rejection of the additional books of the Old Testament, the Protestants should in all logic follow it in its rejection of the New Testament and of Christ Himself.

Kristy’s comments

So those are the factual differences– to put this into historic context, we need to further examine the life of the “Great Reformer” (or “Unfortunate Heretic”, depending on who you ask!), Martin Luther. Changing the Bible– eliminating books and also blatantly changing and elminating phrases– hinges on the political and religious climate of the Reformation era.
Now I’ll be honest, one blog post is hardly enough space to really deeply examine this issue. Frankly, I’m not entirely certain I’m a competent enough academic to examine it using only the internet as an available resource.
Responses
“I must admit, I don’t really understand why our Bible lacks books. I’ve never really “read up” on it. I don’t have much a feeling on it one way or another. [POINT 1]

I do find it funny, however, that the books that we do have in common can be interpreted so differently! See above – your quote where the author says, “what it REALLY means is…” How do they know what it “really means”? How do any of us? I guess we can all claim to know, but I don’t think that we will until we get to heaven. Until then we can just give it our best guess. [POINT 2]

But I would never claim to know what it “really means.” I would say what I BELIEVE it means or THINK it means, but not claim to absolutely *know*. KWIM” [POINT 3]

[Point 1] We know HOW the CC interprets the Bible is thee TRUTH? Because God Himself guarantees it’s truth. We have given a biblical reference [2 Tim. 3:16] as evidence that Luther and company were in serious error right from the beginning. Denying God’s Word is the same as denying God.

The motive for Luther’s actions were to “sell his new found religion” in opposition to what was commonly held as Divinely Inspired Truths held and taught by the Catholic Church for well over 1,000 years. In order to be successful Luther’s Religion [Let’s be clear that what we are talking about] had to 1. Be SIGNIFINATLY different and 2. Salvation had to be SIGNIFINATLY Easier to accomplish. These needs simply cannot be fit into any theology of TRUTH.

The Bible is a Catholic Book, and the CC is thee Bible Church, having in a manner of speaking “birthed the bible..” HOW SO?

Secular history and common logic both affirm this.

FACT: It was what we know today to be the CC that collected the books of the OT to be included in the Canon, [official list of books] with the guidance of the Holy Spirit included in the OT.

FACT: All of the authors of the NT are men we know today to have been the first Catholics. [even though this term would not be applied to them until about 400 years later]

FACT: Today’s CC was THE ONLY Christian in existence until Luther’s Revolt of about 1,600 A.D. Yes the GREAT SCHISM took place in the Eleventh Century; BUT these churches remain connected to the Catholic Vine Christ Himself founded, in beliefs and practices that are very much the same, while not identical.

FACT: Because history shows there were no other Christian Churches, and that the ONLY Bibles in use were Catholic Bibles; until the King James, in about 1610 A.D….. The Bible simply has to be a Catholic Origin book. Even logic permits to other conclusion.

FACT: By and through God’s Master Plan it is evident that ONLY The CC, is the ONLY Church founded by Christ, and the ONLY Church that has the assurance of Christ Himself that it “cannot teach in error on matters of faith and morals.” WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT IN THE BIBLE?

Matt.28: 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me“. …. This authority was given by the Father to the HUMAN – NATURE of Jesus. Christ, as God always possessed it. It was given in conjunction to the merits of Christ earned by His passion and death. Thus Jesus in BOTH His human nature and His Divine nature possessed the power and authority to pass this on to Peter and His successors in the ONLY Church actually founded by Christ

Matt. 16: 19, and 18:18… v.19 I [Jesus] will give you [Peter and My new Church] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” … v.18 Truly, Truly I [Jesus] say to you, [the Apostles] whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Mathew 16 gives the authority to Peter as the Head of the Church, while Matthew 18 extends similar powers IN CONJUNCTION with Peter to the other Apostles and today’s Bishops and Priest.

John 14: 16 – 17 And I [Jesus] will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, [the Holy Spirit] to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you. NOTE: God cannot deny Himself.

John 17: 14-19 .“I [Jesus] have given them [Peter and the Apostles] thy word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sake I [Jesus] consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.”

One can search even in the KJB version, of STRONGS CONCORDANCE [which is a non-Catholic site] for the meaning of the words “to bind,” and “to loose.”

These were common Rabbi terms, enforceable at Jewish law, understood by everyone at the time they were spoken in the context of “the keys.” They were authority of complete and uninhibited Governance [in this case of God’s new Church.] The holder of the keys answered ONLY to the King Himself. So in this case it was Peter as Pope, being placed in complete charge of the new CC, by Jesus and responsible to ONLY God Himself.

It included the ability to among other things make laws, void laws, interpret the bible, and the host of other day to day decisions necessary to run this new Church in the light of MATT. 28:18-20. “And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

[Point 2] The above gives the biblical foundation, the direct permission of God Himself for ONLY His CC to interpret His Holy Words. WHY?

Until “forced by Luther’s pending decision to make the Bible available to everyone, and allow everyone to self interpret it; the CC made every effort to withhold this “same- right” from the laity. WHY?

Acts 8:30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” And he said, “How can I, unless some one guides me?”

King James Version 1 Pet. 20 “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”

Douay-Rheims 1 Pet. 20 “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.”

The RSV Catholic Bible: 2nd. Peter Chapter One verse 20 “First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. “

Keep in mind that when these words were spoken, written and placed in the Formal Canon the ONLY Church in existence was today’s Catholic Church.

So again we are confronted with a violation of God’s Law by what Luther advocated. And look at the consequences.

History seems clearly to affirm the Catholic Position as being right in that after nearly 2,000 years of continuous service to God’s Truths, the CC is still ONE with some 27 branches, all still connected to the Vine planted by Jesus as His CC. While Protestants have in a period of about four hundred years, MANY HUNDREDS, perhaps thousands???? Of separate sects, faiths, sets of beliefs and churches. One can easily see the effectiveness of God’s direct participation and guidance of His CC.

Once again we find a great deal of Biblical support for ONLY trained leaders of Christ CC being able to READ and translate the meaning of the Bible correctly.

Rom. 10: 17 “So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ.”

Eph.1: 13-14 “In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory”

Col. 4: 16 And when this letter has been read among you, have it read also in the church of the La-odice’ans; and see that you read also the letter from La-odice’a. And say to Archip’pus, “See that you fulfill the ministry which you have received in the Lord.”

1Thes.5: 27 “I adjure you by the Lord that this letter be read to all the brethren”

1Tim.4: 13 “Till I come, attend to the public reading of scripture, to preaching, to teaching”

Rev.1: 3 “Blessed is he who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written therein; for the time is near.”

Acts.4: 4 “But many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to about five thousand”

Acts 10: [44] While Peter was still saying this, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word

[POINT 3] Not only does the CC claim to know “The Biblical Truth,” She is the ONLY place one can find it. WHY?

I’ve shared some of the bible evidence , let’s now look at a different perspective: Let’s suppose you were going to start a new business. Your very ambitious and want this to develop into a World Wide Organization. You have at your disposal what you need to get it started.

What are some of the steps you’d likely take?

You’d start with goals [Matt. 28:19-20]

You’d set a business plan that included how this company would be run after your “gone.” [Matt. 16: 15-19, Matt. 18:18]

You would write a Mission Statement and the necessary instruction manuals. [Rom. 10:17, Eph. 1: 13-14]

Christ did all this for His CC and much more; by remaining it the Church Himself, Physically, [Eucharist] and by insuring the constant and ever-lasting Presence of the Holy Spirit to guide Her. His TRUTH is clear, and MUST BE expressed by His Catholic Church [John 10:16 And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.] as is God’s own plan and mandate. [John 14]

Matt.5: 19 “Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

Matt.10: 24-25 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master; it is enough for the disciple to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Be-el’zebul, how much more will they malign those of his household.”

Matt.16: 12 “Then they understood that he did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sad’ducees. [today’s Protestant Preachers; no matter how well intended]

Luke.6: 40 “A disciple is not above his teacher, but every one when he is fully taught will be like his teacher.” My Mentor used to say often: “you can’t share what you do not have.” Logical and true. And that is the problem in a nutshell; protestants do not possess the truth, which God permits ONLY to reside in His Church.

Kristy’s comments

That’s just the thing tho, Andi– Catholics do not believe in personal interpretation of the Bible.

It didn’t even EXIST until Martin Luther’s time– the next post will examine why that was.

The Church since the beginning held councils, in part to determine the meanins of the Scripture– these meetings date back to the time the Scripture itself was written! In order for it to be canonized (declared divinely inspired by God) by the Church, it had to be very VERY carefully studied. Through study and canonization, the meanings behind the Scriptures were determined.

The concept of personal interpreation of scripture is actually very dangerous because it leads people to use Scripture out of context to justify their own sins (which we see all the time, on the BB’s for example, when people have said that they give their 10% tithe and that’s all they need to give– totally leaving out the part about caring for widows and orphans, or the story of the Good Samaritan, etc).

Catholics don’t interpret Scripture personally. We follow the Church, left to us by Jesus, to tell us what it means (if it’s not straightforwardly clear).

AND our books are not the same, even the ones that ARE the same– Catholic Bibles (Douay-Rheims version) have exact phrases from the origional Greek. The next post will examine which PHRASES Martin Luther scrapped from the books that still do exist! And I believe, in one case, he eliminated an entire CHAPTER from the Gospels! So not only did he choose not to include the seven books of the Septuagint, he also “edited” the books that had already been in existence since the canonization of the Bible itself– primarily because they directly negated his concept of easy salvation without sacraments and works.

(Which, I will one day convince you with factual evidence because you are an academic and enjoy that sort of thing, is quite dangerous and false!)
To be continued….

Hmmmm… that was still MAN interpreting the Bible. Regardless of who they were or what esteem “the” church held them in. No?

No, not just men; Catholic Men guided and protected by God Himself. Any explanation by any Catholic that fully conforms to what thee CC Teaches has God Himself as personal witness of the truth.

Anyone, Catholic or non-Catholic that holds any position that is in opposition to what the CC say’s the Bible means is WRONG. And that friends is God’s position, not just mine; not just that of the CC.

And sacraments to achieve salvation? Again, one man’s or one “council’s” interpretation. You have to understand that your saying the Catholic council of “the” church decided this means little to me. Just as me saying that I believe my church is THE church and a bunch of people got together back in the day and decided what the Bible meant would mean little to you.

This post is already too long for comfort so I don’t want to get into [but I can J ] a discussion of the Sacraments. As a FYI… It is Jesus Himself who founded the Seven Sacraments. Four explicitly, and three implicitly [keep in mind Matt. 16:15-19]

Explicitly in the Bible

Baptism John 3:5, Matt. 28:19

Confirmation @ Pentecost John 20: 20-22

Eucharist Matt. 26: 26-28, Mark 14: 22-24, Luke 22:19-21, John all of Chapter six but especially verses 47,48,50,51,53,54, and 55 [and yes I am aware of the common interpretation is easily proven to be wrong of v. 63], and Paul in 1 Cor. 11:22-29.

Confession 1 John 1: 8-10, 1 John 5:16-17, John 20: 20-23

Implicitly referenced in the Bible.

Marriage John 2: 1-11

Priesthood based on the OT model of priest going back as far as Abraham] Lk. 6:13, Jn. 15:16, Acts 6:5, Acts 15:40, Heb. 5:1 and acts 1:26

And Anointing the sick James 5: 14-15

Of the GREATEST SIGNIFIANCE is that four of the seven sacraments have the God granted power in different ways and to different degrees to remit sin.

So now you can see for yourself, they are NOT a human invention, not even strictly speaking a Catholic invention; the originate in Proper Understanding God’s Divine Will and are ALL Biblically supported.

The difference is that I (a wretched protestant) do NOT believe that one church has all the answers. We are all part of one church and it doesn’t have to be the Catholic church. Dangerous to you, commonsensical to me.

One Church [the CCV] either has as God Ordained all of the answers, all the truth on matters of Faith and morals; or there is “no absolute truth,” which is the silly position of many. 1 + 1 equal 2 [even with mittens on]. Were this not THEE TRUTH, the bible would be meaningless. Keep in mind John Chapters 14 and 17.

My mom says that you must be of the anti-Vatican 2 leaning. Yes?

I’d enjoy discussing this with your mom.

I hasten to point out that Vatican II issued NO dogma’s, issued NO New Doctrines, and taught nothing truly “new” to the CC. For those of us who have read and studied the documents, it is painfully clear that it was NOT anything Vatican II said or actually did; but the prideful [Luther types] who felt that they too knew more and knew better than the Pope and the Magisterium [the group of truly faithful Catholic Bishops that support the Pope]. It was the forced application of “the Spirit of Vatican II,” not the teaching that have taken us to where we are today. But God remains in charge.

Eh, believe what you want. That is fine and within your right. I don’t believe that you are *wrong* per se, and that will remain the main difference between my faith and traditional Catholics. I would never surmise to tell someone that I alone have THE truth and know without a shadow of a doubt the absolute only way to live it out. I am not saying truth is subjective, I am saying that we all choose to PRACTICE it in different ways. And I have no fear of death or where I will be when I die. So no worries.

As it is well that you hold that view. For it is the Catholic Church ALONE with the mandate, the authority, the GRAVE MORAL OBLIGATION from Jesus Himself, that requires the CC to do what precisely what you would not do [ and actually cannot do.] You can’t share what you don’t have J .

There was recently a discussion on the BB about why other faiths do not respect Catholics (or something like that, I did not participate). Or misunderstand it, or something. Folks were all up in arms that we all “misunderstand”. I don’t misunderstand, it is just not how I choose to live out my faith. And the general Catholic (traditional, anyway) premise of “we’ve got it right, you are serving God all wrong” is why many are turned off to it (within other faiths).

What Protestants either do not understand [which is understandable to me at least], or refuse to accept; is that the CC has a God given mandate [Matt. 28: 19-20], to teach. To teach the truth, to teach the truth to the whole World. Anything less is failing our Mission and would be a lie. We don’t even have the option from God not to teach and preach.

Because we are right, everyone else has by default to be wrong. Blame God, not the CC and not us Catholics. It’s His Plan.

There are many things I disagree with regarding Catholicism but they all have to do with the practice of it. I do not think that any one who has truly been saved and happens to be Catholic is going to go to hell because they confess to a priest (not Christ directly), pray to the dead to ask for them to pray for them, practice the sacraments in a legalistic manner, think that a relationship with Christ is not necessary or a myriad of other things. To me they are not salvic issues.

This one would require too much space in an already too long reply to respond to now. If anyone desires more information, or wants to discuss what I shared, my personal e-mail is p-miron@ hotmail.com

All the Apostles were Catholic??? Oy.

Matt.10: 1-2 “And he [Jesus] called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every infirmity. The names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zeb’edee, and John his brother; …. Mark.3: 14 “And he appointed twelve, to be with him, and to be sent out to preach” …. Mark.6: 7 “And he called to him the twelve, and began to send them out two by two, and gave them authority over the unclean spirits.”…. Luke.6: 13 “And when it was day, he called his disciples, and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles; “

Yep; all the Apostles were and are Catholic. It was the Only Church Christ founded.

Kristy’s comments
Each of the seven rejected books is quoted by the early Church Fathers as “Scripture”
But here is the real question: Which OT would you rather use-the OT used by Jesus, the NT writers and the early Church, or the OT used by the Jews who rejected Christ and persecuted Christianity?
If your Bible includes the seven books, you follow Jesus and the early Church. If your Bible omits the seven books, you follow the non-Christian Jews at Jamnia and Martin Luther-a man who wanted to throw out even more books (James, Esther, Revelation), and who deliberately added the word “alone” to Sacred Scripture in his German translation of Romans 3:28.

lol the thing is, Andi, MY Church was YOUR chuch too for the first 1600 years! so when I say “MY Church’s councils”, they’re yours too. It was the only Christianity that existed!
That “bunch of people back in the day” were the Apostles themselves (which is making me giggle).Sacraments arent ANYONE’s interpretation. Much of the Bible (in it’s origional and altered forms) tells us quite clearly that sacraments are given to us by God as a means of accepting His grace. We accept them. Or we reject them.

My job isn’t to convince anybody of anything. Conversion comes from God, not from men. My job is to inform people of the Truth. You’re in it now, sister– you read the blog, you’ve been exposed to it, and on Judgement Day when you stand before the Lord, you won’t be able to say you didn’t know! lol!

I think (having explored Protestantism with Dan when first married and found it almost universally to be biblically unsound- and at the time we WERE using the uncomplete, King James version) that until a person is ready to REALLY explore and consider opposing views, they can’t really be sure what they belive is correct.

Just because I believe it, that doesn’t make it true. Millions of atheists believe there is no God at all. Just because they believe it, doesn’t make it TRUTH! Unfortunately, history and solid, verifiable FACT tells us that millions of Protestants were led astray about 400 years ago. The generations of Protestants today often times even know the history of their own churches, which how we’ve arrived at this “all paths to God” society.

Which is just baloney.

So my question to you (not you specifically Andi, but “YOU” the general readership) is this– are you willing to risk it?! Are you REALLY willing to risk that Martin Luther didnt have a political alterior motive in deleting sections from the Bible and selling this view of easy salvation? What if you’re wrong? What then?!

I’ve been down both sides– I’ve examined Scripture with a room full of Baptists, BEFORE we became traditional Catholics. I was married (the first time) in a Methodist church. We explored Lutheranism and Prebyterianism. I challenged what I believed FULLY, without operating under any assumptions about those faiths. I, like the many Protestants flocking the Catholic Church at the moment, found them to be…incomplete…at best.
More to come! Keep reading! You just never know Andi

Oh yeah, and I’m not EXACTLY anti-Vatican II. The Church has always had the power to “bind and loose” (which comes directly from Scripture) the practices of the faithful.
The problem is that (and this is VERY, VERY simplified), the AMERICAN Churches often took liberties with what was NOT specifically noted in the Second Vatican Council– for example, headcovering in the prseence of the Lord (Eucharist).

The Second Vatican Council mentioned NOTHING about headcovering– it was omitted entirely. Thusly, the populous took that to mean it was no longer necessary, and in many parts of the country, have done away with the practice. Such is not the case in other parts of the world!

Lots of little issues like that. Mine is not an issue with the Council– mine is an issue with the way American churches (ome, not all) have taken liberty with the Council decrees.

And, I don’t follow Martin Luther, I follow God.

Ahhhh, actually your unwittingly not following either Luther [your choice] or God, in the manner God wants, and demands to be followed.

I don’t know if he was 100% right or wrong. I think every man who has ever lived (other than Jesus) has his or her own agenda! That’s why I do not like the KJV of the Bible. It was a King paying people to translate the Bible for him! Hello?! Bit of a complex there? LOL

FACT: God say’s there is only One true Bible; and it’s not the King James as we have evidenced above.

Don’t waste your time trying to convert people like me to be Catholic! Worry about those who truly do not know God at all! Those are the folks we should all be concerned about. That’s why I mostly don’t get into theological discussions. It’s a bunch of us on the right path wasting our time when people are literally dying without any knowledge of God!

Like Kristy, I’m not in the Conversion business. I leave that to God.

FYI.. The position of the CC is that “all salvation flows through the CC.” This by virtue of a common Baptism and belief in the trinity. However, ONLY Catholics are BLESSED with the Real Presence of God [you may want to read the bible verses I referenced above on the Eucharist, before you laugh this of. God can’t lie], and ONLY Catholics have the Sacrament of KNOWN forgiveness of sins. Yes I know, you say you know; You don’t, your just hoping. Catholics actually, FACTUALLY KNOW.

FACT: Your not in the ONLY Church, practicing the ONLY faith as God would have it. Are you SURE your on the right path?

And I certainly do not believe that “all paths lead to God.” But I do not believe
that the Catholic path is the only way there. And reading here has actually convinced me of that more, not less

The CC is NOT the ONLY way to get there.

It is the WAY God chooses for us to get to heaven

And it is the SUREST way of getting to heaven.

Oh, and what is the “truth” that we are all missing, btw? That there are books in the Bible we don’t read, or that we don’t wear headcoverings? Those things have nothing to do with truth. Jesus was the truth. And all the Christian faiths I know of believe and preach that. Beyond that the rest is legalistic apples and oranges.

Friend, it seems to me I recall the words “All Scripture” is inspired by God and useful for teaching ect. ALL, Not some, not just what I choose to agree with; ALL!

Like I said, I don’t know why certain books are not there but I am not averse to reading them. I don’t think they will lead someone astray or something! Do you honestly think God will be more worried about that than how we lived our lives for Christ on judgment day??? (and I mean day-to-day life, not taking sacraments once a week or going to confession. those are ways you PRACTICE your faith, not how you LIVE it.)

Great question.

It’s not “either or;” it’s mandate from God for BOTH!

Speaking of head coverings… last week I went to church with baby puke on me and I wore pants. Guess I’m definitely in for the flames now

You’re my kind of mom! Way to go! You’ve already paid the price on this one. J

I guess the bottom line for me is not truth vs. non-truth, I think we all basically believe [SHOULD and God desires WOULD ]the same things.

It’s how it has been said to be necessary to *do* certain things to really have the truth and be saved. The gift of salvation has nothing to do with acts by men in terms of rituals, because that is all they are, acts or rituals performed by man.

Kinda sorta; but not really. Read the Eucharist verses suggested above; you’ll find these exact words from Christ: “Do this in Memory of Me!”

It is the true change within the heart that leads one to salvation and keeps him or her there. And if that leads one to *practice* their faith by *doing* certain things, that is fine but I don’t believe for a minute that not *doing* those things will damn them.

It clearly and biblically has the potential too.

Take Up your Cross and Follow Me

Phil.2: 8 “And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross Luke.9 :23 And he said to all, “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Mark.8: 34 And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. Luke.9: 23And he said to all, “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Luke.14: 7 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” Matt.5: 19 “Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. “ Matt.19: 17 “And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

I need Jenni! She knows scripture much better than me. I can’t just quote it off the top of my head (not a lot of it anyway).

Thanks for putting up with me.

Love and prayers to all,

Pat Miron

patrick j miron as Robin Boy Wonder with Iphone 4 Signal Antenna Issue Consumer Reports

ok here we go start here

Re: Catholic Questions "saved" << First < Prev Next > Last >> Posted By: tx_bigb tx_bigb Offline Send Email Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:55 pm | Options Up Thread View Source Use Fixed Width Font Unwrap Lines

punishment Salvation meaning eternal life in Heaven.   The wages of sin is death. The second death when a soul guilty of mortal sin goes to Hell, even if that soul was at one time justified.      That justification is lost through sin. (2 Thess 1:8-9) in blazing fire, inflicting punishment on those who do not acknowledge God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.      These will pay the penalty of eternal ruin, separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power Above shows that both faith and obedience are required. Without either, a soul is damned to eternal punishment. (Matthew 25:45-46) He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.' And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Again, lack of obedience ending in eternal punishment. Not temporary. (Daniel 12:2) Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake; some shall live forever, others shall be an everlasting horror and disgrace. All these passages and more relate to eternal punishment. When we commit a mortal sin, it is us turning away from God. God, like any parent, is there for us to return to if we choose so, but it is our decision to sin that denies us the free gift God has given us. But if we return to God, we must do so in life. Scripture states clearly that after death we are judged and must pay recompense for our sins resulting in either temporal or eternal punishment. (Hebrews 10:26-27) If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries. This passage is very clear. Even after having been justified by the truth, sin can still lead us to eternal

There are in my opinion, two Divine mysteries There are in my opinion, two Divine mysteries

I am Catholic
Mortal sin is Mortal Combat
By Pat Miron


Allow me my friend to add another layer of understanding, rather than simply comment on the Great Theologian; Thomas Aquinas profound teaching on Mortal Sin.



There are in my opinion, two Divine mysteries that are so profound that they alone ought to supply sufficient motivation for being a Informed, and Fully Practicing Catholic. They are the “Real Presence,” Catholic Holy Communion which invites one to an intimate union with our Creator God, far more intimate and personal than even married love. For is this Blessed Sacrament we not only participate “in it“, we literally SHARE in its substance as we become One with our God. …. The Second mystery deals with the forgiveness of our sins in the manner God Himself has ordained. [And therefore the ONLY sure method]. The result when we participate humbly; repent and convert from our hearts, ,further supported by our future actions is “Known forgiveness of our sins.” No greater source of true-inner-peace and inexpressible joy is known to humanity.
Luke.15: 7“Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.”
The past few hundred years has seen the introduction by mortal men, various subtle “shortcuts,“ that are
deceitful, devious, duplicitous, underhanded, unreliable, untrustworthy, and motivated by a need for expediency driven by [radio, then television broadcast time restrictions]. Theologies like the “Sinners Prayer,“ and teaching that one need only “Know Christ” to be saved; that once one “is saved” [OSAS] one can [will /does] no longer sin is further lead by selling a pleasing hoax to human understanding, while trying to alter a complex and profound Divine teaching. Likely well motivated; but nevertheless a Grave endangering of Souls, anything different than what God himself clearly commands is a very high risk belief. These are myths, a hoax, perpetrated on gullible innocent children of God. Another motive is “an easier, less painful, less humiliating way,” necessarily quicker, and facilitating the “easy-sell” on Broadcast media as an “quick-fix” alterative to Catholic Teachings.
Any informed discussion about sin will evolve around mans personal choices, mans own freewill-decisions. It would be a good idea to frame our discussion with a few bible passages, to insure the understanding that what we share is of Devine, not human origin. The background for what we Catholics understand and teach, believe and practice comes from both Sacred Tradition of the Old Testament, and Revelation by the teachings of Christ Himself in the new perfected Covenant in Christ own Blood of the New Testament. It is highly significant that Christ Passion and the shedding of His Blood, share in both of these mysterious, and powerful Sacraments, and that God could have chosen other ways to accomplish these task.
Sin can only exist because of 1.
The manner in which we emulate our God. Possessing too a mind, intellect and a FREEWILL that are permanently attached to our Souls. without which sin would not be possible. 2. Sin requires always and every time the freewill consent of man. Even when prodded by this or that circumstance or condition, which God has grated to Satan to test us; sin always is a personal choice we must make.
Sin can be defined
as: “Saying NO! to God.” Logic conforms to the reality of this offence being either 1. Lesser [Venial sins] or 2. Greater [Mortal sins]. Because God is “All Good things Perfected,” God’s response must be in relation and proportion to the offense, as JUDGED by God’s, not mans standard.
The GREATEST failing of humanity,
beginning with Adam and Eve and all humanity since is not being able to comprehend how deeply God abhors all sin. Sin attacks the very grain of Gods goodness, mercy and love. And what makes it even worse; it is as already stated, our freewill choice. It is a direct affront to God’s goodness, fairness and justice.